Curse

Chthon · Nov 11, 2011, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Truth be told, no one has ever really improved on Racthoth's original base.

Which would be this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista Blackblood

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:P/W_Imbagon

Any variation off of the FA+FJG+AR+TNtF adrenaline engine is going to result in inability to keep SY! up 100% of the time. (Lots of people have suggested subbing Spear of Fury in for TNtF, but it's just a bad idea since it is guaranteed to introduce some SY! downtime simply by virtue of its recharge, and can result in lots of SY! downtime if it happens to miss. And that's on top of losing TNtF's potent effect and mucking up AR's renewal)

EBSoH adds more DPS to your build (and your allies too) than any other choice for the third PvE slot. (Again, people try to sub in Spear of Fury, but EBSoH adds much more DPS.)

Unfortunately, the optionals listed on the wiki are absolute garbage. These are the correct optionals:

One should be "Find Their Weakness!" which is essentially an attack skill, and a really hard-hitting one at that. It gets bonus points for being a shout (helps with AR and energy), for giving wicked spike potential, and for being usable on another ally if you get shut down.

The other should be what JONO51 said: Swift Javelin if your party has an Orders necro, and Spear of Lightning if it does not.

If you really need to free up a skill slot for something area/quest-specific, put it in one of the optionals and change the remaining one to Vicious Attack.

ruksak · Nov 11, 2011, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Truth be told, no one has ever really improved on

One should be "Find Their Weakness!" which is essentially an attack skill, and a really hard-hitting one at that. It gets bonus points for being a shout (helps with AR and energy), for giving wicked spike potential, and for being usable on another ally if you get shut down.

This ^^^

I tried so many variants for that last available slot, and this has been declared the winner, FTW for the win!

This gives me a viable attack, helps maintain energy and flows nicely with the timing of the build. I agree about deviating from the heart of the imbagon engine, there seems to be no sensible alternative.

Having a ton of fun with this....imbagon has been my most dominant character build for doing VQ's. In certain areas where I had great trouble with other chars, my hero only party seems indestructible. I use a para hero equipped with AoF to keep my Refrain rolling. I took a break for an hour, got something to eat and a shower, and my Refrain was still up.

JONO51 · Nov 11, 2011, 01:22 PM // 13:22

If you want an easier time maintaining AR, get a Superior leadership headpiece (+1+3). With 12 Leadership you have a 21 sec AR and TNtF recharges in 20s so you have to really pay attention and hit it on recharge if you want to maintain it. However, get a sup leadership headpiece and put it on before you cast AR before the first group of enemies, then switch back to your regular spear headpiece. It'll now last 25 second and you have a much bigger window to cast TNtF (5s vs 1s) to keep up AR so if your attention slacks you aren't going to lose AR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Rather than telling us your build, why don't you explain how you have two secondary professions?
Enfeebling Blood = Necro
SY = Warrior
rest = Paragon

Heh, my bad. Got distracted halfway and confused it with another of my builds. Spear if redemption is the skill meant for slot 1.

Lanier · Nov 11, 2011, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

If you're pugging, don't bother with ebsoh. 99% of the time, other people are too retarded to stay in it.

Its also very energy intensive and makes it far more difficult to spam multiple energy-based spear attacks or Find their weakness + these spear attacks. Personally, I use Spear of Fury as my 3rd PvE skill, not for the adrenal gain but for the huge bonus damage.

Chthon · Nov 11, 2011, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

If you're pugging, don't bother with ebsoh. 99% of the time, other people are too retarded to stay in it.

EBSoH does not need other people to produce better damage than Spear of Fury. At max rank, Spear of Fury adds 40dmg on a 9sec cycle. During 9 seconds, you could make 8 attacks (assuming 25% IAS from AR) under EBSoH, for a total of 120dmg at max rank. So, just counting you, EBSoH is already 3x more damage than Spear of Fury. Having anyone else smart enough to stand in it (even a minion) is just going to increase that further.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Its also very energy intensive and makes it far more difficult to spam multiple energy-based spear attacks or Find their weakness + these spear attacks. Personally, I use Spear of Fury as my 3rd PvE skill, not for the adrenal gain but for the huge bonus damage.

I don't find the energy unmanageable.

Essence Snow · Nov 11, 2011, 08:31 PM // 20:31

AR~Aggressive Refrain...is a horrid skill imo. I would never add it to any bar. If you can't find a better IAS than one that costs 25e and -20 armor, then you might want to reconsider your bar. There are just too many better options out there for an IAS.

Lanier · Nov 11, 2011, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I don't find the energy unmanageable.

Hmm, maybe im doing it wrong then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

AR~Aggressive Refrain...is a horrid skill imo. I would never add it to any bar. If you can't find a better IAS than one that costs 25e and -20 armor, then you might want to reconsider your bar. There are just too many better options out there for an IAS.

AR may be a pain in the ass to maintain, but it is one of the best IAS skills in the game. The 25 energy cost is a non-factor because you can simply cast it at the beginning of an area and maintain it with another skill. -20 energy is kind of bad, but its not big enough of a deal to give up a free, constant 25% IAS. What are the other non-elite options? Frenzy is good but it suffers from the same problems that AR faces, and also adds a very steep energy cost onto the decreased defense. Flurry is a very poor choice: it is very energy intensive and it decreases your damage, which imbagons should be able to do quite a bit of for reasons discussed in my previous posts. SF is a decent option but can't really be considered due to FA being superior. Drunken master requires booze to be good.

il Priscilla il · Nov 11, 2011, 08:48 PM // 20:48

There is a P elite (Soldier's Fury) that is bar compression for AR - FA, allowing for an additional spear attack / defensive shout or chant.

If you choose not to use that as your elite, you could always /W for flurry / flail / frenzy <-- if your manly.

/W also gives access to additional shouts.

Flurry is meant for un runed un insignia'd hero, or if you don't have max armor. Flail is probably the best other than the fact it requires adrenaline which could be used to fuel other casts. Frenzy / Flurry should both probably be used with a zealous mod to make up for the energy cost, as even 1-2 connects would regain enough energy for the recast.

Chthon · Nov 11, 2011, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by il Priscilla il

There is a P elite (Soldier's Fury) that is bar compression for AR - FA, allowing for an additional spear attack / defensive shout or chant.

SF is a terrible skill for an imbagon. 33% adr gain is not enough to maintain SY! with full uptime, even at the 6sec breakpoint. And the downtime at the 5sec breakpoint is pretty bad.

Fixing this would require at least two skill slots (Enduring Harmony to stretch out FGJ, then something else to cover FGJ's downtime), which is a bad deal considering that you gained only one skillslot through compression.

Certain members of my alliance will kick a PUG person who pings a SF "imbagon" bar without even giving them a chance to agree to use a better build. It's that bad.

Quote:

If you choose not to use that as your elite, you could always /W for flurry / flail / frenzy <-- if your manly.

None of these are as good as AR. Flurry sucks energy you can't afford. (The damage penalty is only mildly annoying considering your role.) Frenzy sucks energy you can't afford and has a bigger defense penalty than AR. Flail sucks adrenaline that you need for SY! (especially at a 1sec duration). Drunken Master would be superior if you had a ton of booze to blow. What else is there?

Also, Lanier is absolutely right: the effective energy cost of AR is zero. You put it up once per zone with your hat and staff switch, then maintain it indefinitely with TNtF, which you were going to cast anyway.

Premium Unleaded · Nov 12, 2011, 04:52 AM // 04:52

With orders/ebsoh/mop/barbs/etc, 33% ias >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 25% ias. And given how often something like ctt will completely snuff out problems, SF is definitely a viable substitute to AR+FA especially when it has 100% coverage whereas FA needs FGJ normally. I'd be more inclined to believe those certain members are questionable if they zealously hold to SF being 'that bad'.

il Priscilla il · Nov 12, 2011, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Lol, SF is definitely not kick worthy, and flurry frenzy was given with the additional of a zealous mod (1-2 connects and u have enough for recast)

Chthon · Nov 12, 2011, 09:02 AM // 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

With orders/ebsoh/mop/barbs/etc, 33% ias >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 25% ias.

You're a paragon. Damage is nice, but it's not your job. Your job is to maintain SY! 100% of the time. It's going to take 6.75sec to charge SY! under SF, so it's simply not possible to maintain SY! 100% of the time. If you don't have a 10+ alliance rank for 6sec SY!, you can't even come close. That means that you're failing at the doing the one and only job that justifies bringing a paragon in the first place.

If your party was really in a position where it would be wise to trade SY! uptime for damage, then they would do a LOT better changing the paragon a sin, warrior, dervish, or even ranger than they would by taking a paragon's crappy DPS up by 12%. (In short: 112% of crap is crap; Bring a melee.)

(Yes, you could ask a necro to bring Dark Fury to fix the gaping hole that you've put in your own build, but that doesn't change the above analysis. Anything with a decent attack rate can maintain SY! under Dark Fury, so any kind of paragon remains a bad choice if you're going for damage rather than defensive reliability/redundancy, and SF remains a bad choice if you're going for defensive reliability/redundancy rather than damage. Either way the SF paragon should never see play.)

Quote:

I'd be more inclined to believe those certain members are questionable if they zealously hold to SF being 'that bad'.

Those certain members happen to be some of the best players in the game. They basically invented the PvE physway team that uses the orders/ebsoh/mop/barbs/etc paradigm you're talking about.

InStars · Nov 12, 2011, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Check out this video, the author arguments why Soldiers Fury build is better in his opinion.
I can say that it depends on situation and usage, and I would recommend Soldiers Fury only if you have r11 lux/kurz for 6 second SY and you don't use any cons.

http://youtu.be/h47_V1VomP8

Premium Unleaded · Nov 12, 2011, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

...

You argue about maximising damage here, and then you say damage is just a mere afterthought here?

Chthon · Nov 13, 2011, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

You argue about maximising damage here, and then you say damage is just a mere afterthought here?

After you have accomplished your role's primary objective (constant SY! coverage), then you should maximize the DPS you can get out of whatever skillslots/attributes/etc you have left over. SF is bad because you sacrifice your primary objective (SF simply cannot maintain SY!) in exchange for a relatively minor performance increase for a secondary objective (12% DPS increase on a paragon). It's not really that hard to understand.

You could respond to SF inability to maintain SY! by saying "but I care more about damage than SY! coverage," but then your best option would be not to run a paragon in that party slot at all. This also should not be too hard to understand.

ruksak · Nov 13, 2011, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

AR~Aggressive Refrain...is a horrid skill imo. I would never add it to any bar. If you can't find a better IAS than one that costs 25e and -20 armor, then you might want to reconsider your bar. There are just too many better options out there for an IAS.

SF also lowers your armor by 20. I'm not sure where else you could turn for IAS but Refrain, as ideally you would want a shout to maintain IAS, one that comes in the form of a repetative echo.

It seems that a few insignia's (+10 armor while under shout/chant) solves this armor disparity. As well, it seems this build sure makes things easy on the healer, thus he can readily supplement my loss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InStars

Check out this video, the author arguments why Soldiers Fury build is better in his opinion.
I can say that it depends on situation and usage, and I would recommend Soldiers Fury only if you have r11 lux/kurz for 6 second SY and you don't use any cons.

http://youtu.be/h47_V1VomP8

Is it just me, or does it sound like this guy is trying to convince himself more than others? For people with low Luxon/Kurz ranking, SF simply is not an option. Anyone know at what rank SY goes up from 4 seconds?

He suggested using Wild Throw as a means to circumvent blocking, but that takes 7 ticks of adrenaline......so I'm not sure if that's the best option as it seems counter-intuitive. Haven't tried it yet, but I need an option to fallback on for certain parts of the game i.e. Gate of Madness mission ~ Madness Titans....those little buggers are troublesome.

Lanier · Nov 13, 2011, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

After you have accomplished your role's primary objective (constant SY! coverage), then you should maximize the DPS you can get out of whatever skillslots/attributes/etc you have left over.

I wanted to emphasize this quote because it is exactly what an imbagon should be doing, and why AR + FA is superior to the alternatives. I feel like a lot of imbagons just forget about damage completely, and that shouldn't be the case (though it should take a backseat to maintaining SY).

Quote:

He suggested using Wild Throw as a means to circumvent blocking, but that takes 7 ticks of adrenaline......so I'm not sure if that's the best option as it seems counter-intuitive. Haven't tried it yet, but I need an option to fallback on for certain parts of the game i.e. Gate of Madness mission ~ Madness Titans....those little buggers are troublesome.

Wild throw wont help against them because their blocking comes from enchantments, and wild throw removes stances. Does asura scan work against blocking enchantments? If so, you should probably replace one of your energy-based spear attacks with asura scan for that mission.

ruksak · Nov 13, 2011, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Wild throw wont help against them because their blocking comes from enchantments, and wild throw removes stances. Does asura scan work against blocking enchantments? If so, you should probably replace one of your energy-based spear attacks with asura scan for that mission.

Hmmm....didn't know that. I thought that since Wild Throw said "Unblockable" that meant it was unblockable, period. Dunno but that skill wants 7 ticks of adrenaline so I ain't usin it.

Asuran scan was mentioned earlier in this thread but I have yet to try it.

We did a ZB HM run this morning in Rragar's Menagerie (frickin tough) and no wipes, only two deaths, but that was because a few of the players kept runnin too far ahead of the group.

I've been running:

FA
SY
TNtF
AR
FGJ
FTW
SoF
Fall Back

This bar has run really smooth, good intermittent spike DMG that feeds adrenaline. The only thing that bugs me is my low Luxon rank of 2, which only provides a 4 second SY charge. It seems like that extra 2 seconds would make a HUGE difference.

I managed to piece together a decent Imba, all thanks to the fine folks here. Thanks for the help, guys!

Chthon · Nov 13, 2011, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruksak

Hmmm....didn't know that. I thought that since Wild Throw said "Unblockable" that meant it was unblockable, period.

I think Lanier's point was that Wild Throw doesn't remove the block effect for future hits. If the monster were using a block stance, then WT would hit because it's unblockable and remove the stance, which would cause your successive attacks to hit as well. If the monster has a block enchantment, sure, WT is going to hit, but everything else is still going to get blocked. Landing just one hit isn't going to charge SY! or do anything else worth doing.

If an area contains a significant amount of enchant-based blocking, your best bet would be to sacrifice a bunch of DPS by giving up EBSoH for AScan. (Or get your party's necro to bring serious removal like WoProfane.)

Quote:

I managed to piece together a decent Imba, all thanks to the fine folks here. Thanks for the help, guys!

Glad we could help.

InStars · Nov 15, 2011, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruksak

Is it just me, or does it sound like this guy is trying to convince himself more than others? For people with low Luxon/Kurz ranking, SF simply is not an option. Anyone know at what rank SY goes up from 4 seconds?

You need rank4 for 5 second SY and rank10 for 6 second SY.

So actually you don't need to be that close to "maxed" rank.
Also, there is a skill called "Spear of Fury" that helps to maintain SY even with SF.

Like I said - it depends on the situation whether to use SF or FA.
So there is not one "better" elite for all cases, use Soldier's Fury if you can maintain SF with it and you are not using any Attack Speed inscreasing cons.
Because the best imbagon is an Imbagon with FA and BU or Rock Candies, then you can remove Agressive Refrain and be happy maintaining SY and attacking faster.